The Spank Debate

March 23, 2009 by  
Filed under Mommy Monday

In the last Mommy Monday blog I wrote about controlling my desire to yell at Kali for every infraction, even the ones she couldn’t control. Taking it a step further, I made a pact with myself to find other ways to discipline and get my point across when the situation warranted some kind of discipline. I began the blog with a short explanation of my views on spanking children. It seemed that received more feedback than the rest of the blog. So, I decided to revisit that topic in further detail for today’s Mommy Monday blog.

You can read the first part of the last blog here.

If you read the first blog, then you know that Kali has received one, open-hand, spanking as a toddler, and received not so much as a swat since.  When explaining my feelings on spanking, I think it’s important to separate pre-motherhood and post-motherhood.

Before having children, I knew that I didn’t want to spank to discipline. I got spankings and beatings a child. It’s just how my mother and stepfather rolled. I grew up in a time when parents spanked and openly admitted it. Hell, parents would spank other people’s children! It was more than “it takes a village,” and more like, “if you don’t act right in my house, I’ll spank you, and then you can go and tell your mom I did so I can spank her too for not raising you better!”

I’ve been spanked with a belt, slipper, and open hand. I’ve been yelled at and smacked. I know the fear that comes with anticipating a spanking, the loss of self-respect, and the loss of respect for the parent that beats you.

My initial response to spanking my future children was definitely an emotional one. It is said that children often grow up to repeat certain behaviors, and I have a temper. I knew before becoming a Mom that not spanking was something I’d have to work at. But, I also had another model to follow. My father didn’t spank. It’s not that he didn’t believe in it, and I’m sure I gave him ’cause to, but our relationship had the luxury of blossoming over weekends, summer vacations, and the occasional holiday; not really a lot of room for spankings.

But really, I attribute my desire not to spank my own children to being spanked as a kid. It was always annoying when people would say, “Oh, you’ll feel differently once you have a kid.” I just found that to be completely ignorant. Not spanking is a choice, and I have every right to it. I found it ridiculous that once my children got here, I’d give up my decision to try other discipline options and go, “Yeah, I need to beat that ass.”

After I became a Mom, as I said, I spanked once out of frustration and immediately regretted it. I didn’t like the way it made Kali feel, I didn’t like the way it made me feel, and I was disappointed in myself for not employing other alternatives.

Now, with ten years, and two kids, under my belt, I’m proud to say I’m a non-spanker. Here’s why (all my opinion):

1. Emotionally, spanking is harmful. One would assume, and hope, that people are only striking their children because they believe this will effectively correct negative behavior.  With emotions running high (you = disappointed, annoyed, angry, etc., your child = embarrassed, frustrated, afraid, defiant, etc.), why add violence to the mix?

Spanking affects the way your child feels about you and themselves. I’m sure adults who were spanked love their parents. I love my mother immensely, but when I was getting spanked as a young child, and later received beatings with a belt as I got older, I didn’t always like her. And I judged her as a parent. I didn’t feel good about myself because it made me feel like the only way for her to teach me was to hit me.

Finally, personally, I honestly get sick to my stomach just thinking about striking my kids. It’s just not a place I’d like to go.

2. Spanking doesn’t work. I don’t think any discipline technique is 100% effective. We all know that every child is different. Grounding two teenagers for the exact same offense may correct the behavior in one the first time, and not at all with the other. I cringe every time I hear someone say that some children need to be beaten/spanked.

spanking

I know just the child they’re talking about. We all do. That kid that just doesn’t listen. The one that back-talks and runs amuck.

cryingkidspanking-blog

Almost always that’s the child that received almost no discipline at all. Sassy behavior was ignored or seen as “cute.” Any non-spanking forms of discipline weren’t consistent and then one day you wake up and the kid is running the show. Now the parent wants to spank. They want to spank to gain control and respect in a situation that has already spun out of control.

A little bit of this goes a long way.

A little bit of this goes a long way.

Is it ever too late? I don’t think so. I do think that the longer you go without employing any discipline just makes matters worse, and to suddenly decide that spanking a kid you allowed to become a terror isn’t going to help. I know people who were spanked and people who weren’t, and they still committed all of the offenses most of us did growing up; teenage sex, missing curfews, lying, slacking off in school occasionally, etc.

I’ve never met a person that says they got one spanking, and then never misbehaved again. Not one. So, if I have a choice, and I do, why not try other forms of discipline that don’t involve violence?

3. I think that, sometimes, spanking is more about the parent’s inability to discipline effectively and less about actually handing out an appropriate punishment for the child.

Again, I know I have a temper, and it would be so easy for me to just spank Kali at every turn, and then send her to her room. But what does she learn? Mommy is bigger than me and can hit me when I mess up? I just have a problem with the message that sends.

And it boggles my mind when parents spank, the child cries, and the parent doesn’t want to hear it! It’s like, they want to spank, correct the behavior, demand respect, gain control, and defy physics! I’m gonna hit you, and it will hurt (and let’s face it, a spanking parent wants it to hurt or else, what’s the point?), but you better not cry about it!

4. What kind of message does it send? We teach our kids that no one has the right to hit them, except us because we gave birth to them. But don’t worry, I’ll only do it when you deserve it, and only because I love you. Yeah, you let your daughter come home with that as an excuse as to why her boyfriend hits her and see how that flies.

5. It doesn’t work! Did I say that already? Good. It bears repeating. I think that, for the most part, kids will always try to get away with what they can. Sometimes it’s because teenagers become defiant by nature, or they honestly don’t think their parents know what they’re talking about. Also, there’s a sense of immortality and invincibility with kids. There’s a reason they’re not allowed to drive, drink, vote, etc. until certain ages. Their reasoning and judgment isn’t always developed enough to handle certain responsibilities. They will push limits and boundaries. The same kid that worries about getting spanked will try harder not to get caught next time, just as the kid that worries about getting his computer or video game privileges taken away.

I’m not saying that Kali is perfect. She’s not. Currently my biggest peeves involve her staying on task in school and doing things she’s told at home the first time. And the latter isn’t done out of defiance or disrespect, we just have a scatterbrain issue developing. Now, she’s grounded for a poor mark in social studies. No TV, video games, computer, or going outside for at least a week. It’s my job to be consistent. It’s my job to not give in before the week is up. It is my hope that she will think about how miserable her life has been without her favorite forms of entertainment the next time she’s tempted to not stay on task at school.

I don’t believe that spanked children grow up to be more respectful, less trouble, or more productive members of society. And because of that, I choose to discipline my children in a manner that doesn’t involve violence and taking away their self-respect.

spankdebate

I prefer talking, removing the child from situations (for toddlers), and taking away their comforts for older kids.

Now, a funny story…

When we first moved here we had dinner at a neighbor’s house. The kids were in another room while the adults sat around the table after dinner chatting. One of the hosts’ sons came into the kitchen complaining that their other son had done something wrong. The offending boy was called into the dining room where he admitted to the bad behavior. Kali, who was about 4 at the time, wasn’t used to sibling fighting because she was an only child. She came into the room, fascinated, and crawled into my lap.

“Go get the spatula,” the father instructed the guilty boy.

The boy shuffled off to the kitchen, wailing as he went.

“What’s a spatula?,” Kali asked me.

“It’s that thing I use to flip the pancakes.”

“Why is he crying over pancakes?”

What are your views on spankings? Do you spank? Are there limits? What are some non-spanking disciplinary action you either use, or would like to use? Do you think that spanking works? Why?

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mrslesliebrooks 5 pts

I found your post via a google search on "The Spank Debate" and thought you might like to link it up to our BlogHop on #TheSpankDebate. You can find it here: http://www.ruffruminations.blogspot.com/2012/02/thespankdebate-ruff-ruminations.html

Spank a child? Oh sorry, let me be correct about this ... HIT a child?? No .. never ..ever. I am 56 and was spanked - my life fell round my ears, and my love, respect and trust of my parents ended with the first smack of the first spanking. I was a quiet, respectful child, and they spanked me - and I learned anger, hate, fear, pain, that they didn't love me - no, the post spanking pep talk nonsense of 'oh and we love you' did NOT mean a thing. Words are cheap and they had just demonstrated they didn't by hitting me - which I knew to be wrong! No-one should be hit. There should be no need for debate. It shouldn't happen. It shouldn't be allowed. Why do we safeguard adults and animals but not the most vulnerable of our society our young?

Fear did NOT bring me respect! I hated my parents .. and although I would do anything for my mother when she was living, love ... is not a word I could use with her. I hated Mother's Day - because all the cards had such sickening, lovey dovey words in them. Words... that were wonderful, and I couldn't buy for her. I actually cried once and had to leave the shop. I was about 50 at the time.
Why would a parent want to risk emotionally damaging a child, or even damaging their relationship with their child? Discipline means to teach. I did just that with my two children and never spanked them. There were still consequences when necessary. And they are now great gentle adults.

I do NOT understand this 'thing' people have of swatting toddlers for ...poking electrical sockets. Have you not heard of plastic 'plugs' that fill the empty holes? For touching a hot stove ? erm .. If you mean the oven part - how OLD is your oven that it would actually burn ? Mine doesn't and even if it could, use a high chair, a low chair, or a playpen whilst cooking. If you mean the hob - what on earth is a toddler doing anywhere near a hob, if it's climbing on a chair to reach it ... where are YOU??? Running in the road ... just WHERE were you?? If the child is older and you have caught it running across a road - then keep it home for a period of time and then insist on taking it yourself to and fro so it has to learn to cross safely. Hitting a child teaches it nothing except to avoid the pain. THAT isn't learning right from wrong.

Just because this abhorrent treatment of children has gone on for thousands of years doesn't make it right. Wife beating, slavery and wholesale rape and buggery of 7 yr olds in Ancient Rome were all accepted once and are banned now. And so should spanking / hitting a child.

I am a Brit living in Europe where spanking has been banned for many many years. We have less violence, less hate, and more care and love than anywhere that still accepts that hitting a child is just fine and dandy.

The efficacy of spankings to me would really depends upon the relationship of the parent and child. From my mother it would never work because her emotional swings already exposed me to her votility and anger, I already lost respect to her because of her lack of consistency and respect to me.
From my dad it would not work either, because he was emotionally inconsistent too, thanks to frustrations with my mother's issues. I tried to be perfect for him though, because I loved him- he was never mean to me.
From my grandmother it would be an instant surprise and hiccup! I would pay attention, because she was never the type to be yelling or violent.

As some people pointed out, spanking requires that the parent is not angry.. and it's real easy to feel that when it is happening! The emotional balance and maturity needs to be there, because the parent must play multiple roles when spanking. It's a fine balance!

I tell people that we are a NO SPANKING household. But that is not 100% true. My children have gotten little taps on the bottoms, or on their little hands from time to time when they were toddlers. Only when redirection was not working. I wanted them to associate what they were doing with discomfort. (putting things in outlets, trying to climb in the stove, ect...) I can say that "I" have not spanked my children since they were old enough to understand other punishment methods, time out, taking things away, things of that nature. Daddy spanked Gabby the other night, she did not deserve it and i let him know where I stood. He felt bad instantly and all the next day. She curled up in his lap 45 minutes later and went to sleep. Was she traumatized for life? Not likely. But will he do it again? Also not likely. Sometimes co parenting is hard, one person doesn't always do things the way the other does. In our case, we mostly agree, and when we don't, I usually convert him to my side.

I don't spank because i witnessed my father spanking my brother way to often and when he was way to old. When he was 11 years old my father broke a belt on my brothers ass, i was 13, I went in, grabbed the half he was still using to beat my brother and told him, "if you ever touch him again, I WILL KILL YOU!" And I meant it. I was so angry and felt so protective of him, and i knew my mom would not approve of what he was doing. There was no reason for it and I will never allow my children to feel the way my brother felt on that day.

This is Beautiful. Absolutely Beautiful. The first Black Woman I have ever heard with a firm grip on not beating her children the way her mother abused her and my adopted mother abused me. I witnessed a 9 year old boy get hit ten times or more in an angry rage by his mother becauue he could not find the remote control. This 9 year old has a developmental disability. God help the Black children with emotional, mental or physical disabilities, they will be abused.

Nina, no matter what anyone says, stand your ground. God does not bless us with children that need to be beaten and abused to act right. They came perfect. I am a Father and I have never hit, whipped, beat my children. I must say, I have yelled and even used explitives from time to time. I have daughters and one son and my daughters made me use explitives; I also wanted to show my children that I am human but not criminal.

Finally, adults are protected against getting hit or beaten or whipped when we are doing something wrong we know better not to do. Like who beats, whip all these christain black women who love Jesus but have one or more children from varying fathers and never married. Is not fornnication a sin. For all children concieved out of wedlock should never be beaten. Fornicated children are the most abused children in the Black family and that is about all the children minus a few. Love You Nina...Peace....

i found your description of both the parent and the child's emotions during and after spanking extremely poignant. My mom spanked me until I was maybe 10 or 11, then once again when I was 14 and 17. You can imagine the fear and resentment I had toward my mother... who, as a person who'd never taken any risks, never pushed the envelope, had no stories to tell me like, "you know when I did that at your age" or "I know it might seem like this now... do you feel like ____? That will probably change, and this is why." I got little in the way of guidance, and much in the way of authoritarianism. After she stopped spanking me, she found other ways to oppress me (yes i said oppress haha)... she soaked a magazine I liked in the toilet because she hated it, stole and hid my CDs, trash talked my friends, accused me of lesbianism, etc. The last day I lived with my mom I was 17. Details are unimportant. The point is that she beat me over the legs and torso with my guitar until nothing was left of it but splinters, pushed me into a bookshelf and broke it, beat me with a hairbrush, anything she could find. I called the police, she stopped beating me with the brush and started brushing her hair with it. I like that you equate spanking with violence, because it IS violence. I had never been BEATEN by my mother before, but it was clear to see that this behavior had just been lying dormant. Now that I was older and bigger it was OK to be vicious and psychotic.

If I ever have kids I will never ever ever ever hit them. Fearing and questioning the sanity/judgment of your main role model/authority figure will set you up for a lot of problems down the road.

I know that on myspace you used to get mail from people accusing you of being a bad mother, and say "don't judge me!" a lot (lol) but I hope you won't be offended by the link I'm going to post... from what we know about your life on the internet it sounds like your family watches a lot of TV. It might not be a huge mystery why Kali is having troubles concentrating at school and at home. This isn't the only article/research I've read about this but it was the most succinct one I could find on short notice.

I think you might be getting it just a liiittle twisted. I didn't get emails calling me a bad parent. And Kali's concentration in school has nothing to do with TV. She has a nice balance of TV, books, and outside time now that my little sis here. Kali's problem is that she and her best friend don't know how to keep their mouths shut in class.

Oh, and I have that concern... that the bigger the child gets, the bigger the spankings will become. I remember a friend of my Mom's who got into a fist fight with her teenage son. He called the cops. She told them, "You damn right I punched him. Look how big he is."

"... from what we know about your life on the internet it sounds like your family watches a lot of TV."

It sounds like Nina recaps a few shows, but I've never read any tv blogs where Kali is included in the mix. My daughter watches very little tv and still has to be reminded to do the same four things every morning.

Also, I don't think Nina has ever received emails calling her a bad parent. Judgy emails? Yes. Judgy comments? Fer sure.

i actually don't read the tv blogs, I just know they exist. But you see that's why I said "from what we know on the internet", because a person can decide any old damn thing they want from the couple of words they read in a blog--I did not mean in any way to presume that I know what happens in their home.

As for what kind of emails Nina gets, who knows? not me, though I could have sworn that she's written at least one blog calling out people who want to judge what she does at home, whether someone specifically said "bad parent" or was just "judgy" who really cares, the point is that someone she doesn't even know didn't approve of something of something she did, I don't make it my business to memorize verbatim bits of blogs I read a year ago so that might account for why i don't know exactly.

I don't think that spankings can be equated to violence. If a parent is disciplining out of anger, repeatedly popping the child and leaving marks yes that's violence because it has gone beyond a simple spanking to a beating. There is a difference. Though the line is fine there is a difference.

I spank my daughters but it is only on the bottom, or they may get a pop on the hand. I do not discipline out of anger. And I only discipline for defined reasonings which are disrespect, disobediance, and lying.

Doing childlike things may be annoying at times but does not warrant a spanking. Sometimes children don't understand and need things explained several times before they get it. What I expect of my 7-year old I don't expect of my 5-year old. So, to spank them for some of the same things is unfair. However, there are times when they do get spanked for similar things (writing in walls, telling lies).

I am what most of my friends say extremely patient. I explain things to my children and we talk openly about a lot of things (that's age appropriate). But I find it a little offensive to be lumped into the same category as someone who's slapping thier child around because thier pissed off, had a bad day, or just generally an unhappy person.

yeah I mean, you can call it whatever you want. I used to work with small children for a living. These are kids who are acting their baddest because they know you are not their parent and by the end of the day will forget to call their house because you had to look at forty-five other of these little suckers before you get home. So I am well-accustomed to an all-day situation where I am not allowed to hit the child, but must discipline him some way. Excluding him from activities seemed to be the best last resort, yelling at the top of your lungs does not work in the long run, almost every child will need to be told something ten times. So in this way I know a lot about child discipline, and believe me, these kids are not well-behaved, they are little monsters and spoiled to boot.

One time as sort of a reaction and out of frustration I slapped--so lightly it could barely be distinguished from a pat--a child on the hand with some curt, short order, after having told her something a hundred times and knowing that she knew she was doing something wrong and did it anyway just to prove that she could do it and nothing could stop her from it. The child was so afraid and looked at me with such mistrust, and I felt SO AWFUL, for weeks afterward... you can say you're not making a mark on your kid, that's fine, it's your kid and your business--I guess--but in my mind, the measure of violence is not whether you have to cart him off to the ER, but whether he *felt* attacked. The body produces the same chemical in the brain that is produced when a person is in danger, it is still a trauma, it is the same fear.

You will not convince me that using fear against a child is not violent in some form.

It sounds to me like your traumatized by the abuse you suffered from your mother. From what you've explained of the things you experienced as a child that was abuse (violence) because you're mother acted out in rage and disciplined you in frustration because of whatever.

Same as for you when you chose to pop the little girl on the hand. Sounds like you were at you're wits end and felt challenged by this child. So, in order to show her who had the upper hand you popped her. Yes, acting out in rage, frustration, anger, etc etc is abuse. I don't advocate that at all.

As everyone has stated what works for some may not work for others. I know for my children that there are times that I can talk with them, take things away, and as a last resort spank.

My goal is never to convince anyone who is adamant about something to change thier views. You feel the way that you do and it's totally acceptable. For example you feel that people who spank are violent. I was merely stating that I disagree with you.

"traumatized" is a strong word, but for sure it made an impression on me. You know how when people have religion shoved down their throats for all of their lives and then grow up to be avid atheists, or when you've drunk so much your whole life that the only way to stay sober and manage your life is to never drink again? I think I'm more like that. Traumatized would infer that I still somehow carry around a paranoia or a fear, and I don't think that's true, but like someone who has seen/experienced too much of a bad thing, I can't allow it in my life really. I would agree with you that it's a coping mechanism in some form.

"I don’t have children, BUT again I’m the oldest child/grandchild. I RARELY spank anyone..."

Do you have permission to spank? The reason I ask is because my mother has a friend who was providing childcare for her grandson when he "sassed her" one day and got slapped. He was about three at the time and when his mom found out, she got so pissed that she terminated their arrangement and it took a long time to repair the relationship.

When my mom relayed the story to me, I told her that I would not allow ANYONE to spank my children either, especially since WE (the parents) don't spank. My mom was surprised to learn that she didn't have the power she thought she had. I just think that people should be clear as to what kind of discipline techniques they approve of when leaving their children in the care of others.

I agree. You know my Mom is here now and I've made it clear; don't hit my children. If you can't discipline them without hitting then I just know you don't need to be left alone with them. Sophie, you know I have NO problem with that.

Okay. The DelMonte Can O' Worms is on the table. Now I must decide if I should open it.

At the time, which also beat the our age class, where there was a need for it and here we are still very healthy. The current perception of Veress that should not be penalized for the child, it also seems to be growing generation schizophrenia blood .. and of course our American news from Hungary, for instance, where all young people madly Shots fired, is not it?

Any "reaction" we have to our children misbehaving, in my humble opinion, is wrong. It's the anger and frustration that makes a child feel disrespected, not the spanking. A parent who cannot enforce discipline without getting emotional will likely have just as low a success rate with time out as they will with spanking. I don't think it's the form of discipline that needs discussion so much as the attitude behind the discipline and it's delivery. I've seen the good and the bad with spankers and with non-spankers. I haven't seen a direct correlation between children who feel worthless and parents who spank. I rarely spank my kids anymore. Partly because they're just getting old enough that it wouldn't be effective. In addition, I just rarely need to hand out more than a gentle suggestion anymore and the kids are back on track. When my children were younger, I definately did spank them and I have only one regret. It was one particular incident with my eldest. I don't necessarily regret the spanking. What I regret is that I lost my patience. That is what makes children lose self worth. I started spanking when my kids were very young. Once they were old enough to understand the reason behind the rule and to rationalize with me and conversate about it, spanking became less and less necessary. When they're very young, it can be beneficial. You can tell your 11 month old child to stop climbing on the glass coffee table a thousand times and you can take away her bouncy ball as punishment and explain to her that she could fall and that it's dangerous to climb up there. It won't make a bit of sense to that kid. If that kid gets a swat on the diaper every time they climb on that table, chances are pretty good, they'll quit climbing on the table. I'll say one last thing. I was spanked as a child and I never felt disrespected by it. The discipline that I remember... the times that hurt... those moments that I'll never quite be able to let go... were not when Mom spanked me. They were when she yelled at me. I will not yell at my children. Every day is a fresh chance to prove to myself that I can do it, that I can discipline without making my children feel worthless.

Spanking Stories

When I was 8 or 9 I helped myself to what I thought were quarters from a box in my parent's room. That weekend I feasted on hot dogs at the park while my father and his friends played softball. A few days later my mother noticed the missing coins. A thorough investigation ensued and I was quickly found out. The beating I got let me know that a life of crime was not for me. As it turned out, the quarters were actually silver dollars. I only had a few left. I don't know what they were worth but my mom was very upset.

To add insult to injury, the hot dog vender, realizing that I did not know what I had, short changed me on every trip to the cart.

"To add insult to injury, the hot dog vender, realizing that I did not know what I had, short changed me on every trip to the cart."

Love it.

Reading your dad's comments, I thought I picked up a strong similarity between the two of you - something in the way he expresses himself, his wit etc.

LMAO @ your mother's streak landing you in jail

I am definitely my father's daughter, I have a lot of my mother's artistic streak and empathy, but my ambition, humor, social personality and Spanish temper - all my dad. And when I mean temper I mean this: my dad gets cranky as hell but it takes a lot for him to get really angry but when he does...

when I was fourteen I snuck out my window and went roaming with one of my friends, we got picked up by the cops and when I got dropped off at home my dad was deadly quiet. He tried to open my door but I had locked it from the inside, he looked at me and said, "Oh, was that your strategy?"
Took a step back and
BOOM
Kicked. the. door. down.

That is me. I get cranky, full of fire, but it flares up and is over quickly. It takes a whole mile of insult to get me really enraged but once I cross over, that is it, that door gets kicked down.

I don't have children, BUT again I'm the oldest child/grandchild. I RARELY spank anyone, but if I do it's because other methods have failed. It's like Bryce said, I use it to reinforce other punishments. I, like you, try to employ alternative methods. I'm not afraid to remove every bit of stimulus from my sister's room. I'm not afraid to put her in her room and let her cry. I've worked in a daycare center, I can block out screaming kids like I have my own. I'm mostly a talker, I talk to my sister/cousin. Let them know I'm disappointed. It works for me. When I have my own children, I don't intend to be a spanker.
You do bring up another very good point, I hated the way I felt after a spanking. And more often than not I was spanked due to my mama having a bad day. I know when I got older, I had to "put her in check". She came home and immediately started yelling at me about why there were dishes in the sink, so I politely but firmly said, "Just because you had a bad day at work, doesn't mean you need to take it out on me." She looked shocked and walked away. I wish I had been able to speak up as a child, but my mama was on this whole children are to been seen not hear kick. I was born in '84. I have no idea where she got that crap from.
I think we all have to agree to disagree. Some of us, I mean you as I have no children of my own, are spankers. Others are the creative punishment type. I like them better. The "Cosby" punishments if you will. ^_^
Oh, before I forget, here's a funny spanking story. My cousin got spanked all the time, and was tired of it. So she came up with a way to end it. Next time she got a spanking, she screamed out OH GOD IT HURTS and hit the ground. Grandma freaks out and rushes her to the hospital. As I'm standing next to her in the hospital room crying, she opens her eyes smiles and immediately goes back to laying there looking pale and tragic. Needless to say she never got another spanking again.

THAT gave me the best laugh of the day. Thanks!

My father never spanked me and my mother only did it a few times when I was a child. To be honest, I think she just did it out of pure frustration at the situation and that's why she switched over to the grounding rule which worked on me a lot better.

I never understood spanking, especially when it was followed with the line "If you don't stop crying, I'll REALLY give you something to cry about!" which just scared me and made me cry more.

Kudos to you for finding, what I believe to be, more constructive ways of disciplining your children. :)

I honestly want to knock the parent in the head when I hear that. "Before I really give you something to cry about." So, now, the kid can't even react to being hit? Seriously?

When I was a kid my mom would "paddle" me with the back of a brush but only if I was really bad..if i was extremely bad my dad would spank me with his bare hand but I only remember that once or twice. Thing is when i was 7 my mom went to spank me, she told me to "bend over" her knee and swatted me 5 times with the brush while counting it down...when she was done, I looked her dead in her face and said "you will not spank me again" and walked out of the room...and she let herself be punked like that by a 7 year old...I had no respect for her after that. I ran my house and the only thing that kept me from being a complete loser was my intelligence and religious guilt.
My sister choked me out once when i was in high school and i never challenged her again...there is such a thing as healthy fear, and it breeds respect.
I think the issue is far more about the other aspects of the relationship and how the child feels about themselves...if your child feels loved, respected and safe..then getting popped for misbehavior doesnt do any emotional damage. On the flip side if the child feels ignored and neglected than lack of discipline could lead to Columbine type kids.
Nina, I think that the only issue I have with what you had to say in the blog is the declarative statements that spankings cause emotional damage, that it doesnt work or that it is evidence that the parent cant discipline effectively without it...there are plenty of cases where those statements are proven wrong. If not spanking your kids works for you, that is great, but making judgmental statements about people who do spank isnt very fair.

"I think that, sometimes, spanking is more about the parent’s inability to discipline effectively and less about actually handing out an appropriate punishment for the child."

Sometimes, not all the time. I have witnessed it and been on the receiving end of it. I've seen children hit because they just happened to piss their parent off at the wrong time or at the end of a bad day. That's why I like what the one woman said above about taking a moment to think on it.

I find it funny that a lot of people who advocate spanking feel the need to say it's a last resort. It's like they know there's a level of something not right about it, so it should only be used under the most dire of circumstances.

And I prefaced the whole thing with it all being my opinions that shaped the choice I made. No, I don't think it works. Just like no discipline at all doesn't work. And just talking and taking away privileges doesn't always work. And what I mean by that is, if any of those things or a combination of them "worked," we'd employ them at the first offense and the child would never, ever, repeat it. We'd employ it for each offense thereafter, and the child would never repeat those. But that rarely, if ever, happens. Especially when they're teens. You just said that RIGHT AFTER a spanking, you punked your Mom. Obviously, that spanking didn't work.

As for the emotional damage, unfortunately, you don't know what kind of damage you're causing to your kids until much, much, later. And I mean that in regard to anything you do. For some reason, people think because they are adults and still love their parents that made spanking okay. Of course we love our parents. Some people have had horrible beatings, and worse, at their parents hands and still love them. That doesn't mean that at the time of the ass whippings as kids, they felt that way. That doesn't mean that there's not the possibility that their self esteem was affected by being hit.

I think you are right about not knowing, but self esteem is such a fragile thing and everyone's mind is different. Which is why telling some young women they are chunky makes them learn to be healthy and turns others into anorexics...
I guess for me I am happy that I dont have to hit Deijah anymore because I dont like it, but I do not regret the times I hit her in the past because it has worked out for us. Now I do regret allowing her father to hit her because 1) i had no idea how badly he would beat her 2) i had no idea how traumatizing it would be to her...she told me once she knew i loved her and that she knew i only hit her if she was very bad, but that she thought at the time her Daddy hated her...interesting perspective from a kid...they are good now, they talked about it...but i digress
As for me, I punked her because she didnt hit me hard and when i told her not to do it again she didnt snatch me up. I never feared my parents, I to this day fear my sister.
I guess if I think about it, I think its actually better to pop small children, more sound than pain because you cant reason with them or take away the computer or video games from them. It gets their attention and they understand not to do certain things. Things work right, by the time they are in elementary school you shouldnt need to hit them...

AND they won't remember it!

I kid, I kid.

I got spanked as a child though not very often. I was a good kid (you keep telling people when they say this no you just didn't get caught but I really was a good kid, I was always with adults and I knew if I didn't behave my ass would be tore up).

My parents used spanking as a last resort. If I got spanked it meant I had really done something horrendous and that I'd earned a little pain. If I didn't clean my room my mom's answer was simple. She bagged up everything on the floor didn't matter what it was in black garbage bags and tossed it in the garage. I then had to EARN it all back a bag at a time.

If I got in trouble at school or talked back my mom made me repetitively write a sentence about how I will be held accountable for my actions, over and over until I either couldn't use my hand to write anymore or ran out of paper.

I copied out of the dictionary on other occasion. Both resulted in me having rather good penmanship as I got older, I got a ton of practice in as a kid.

I got spanked on occasion for talking back or screaming at my parents. I can't remember my mom ever spanking me that was my dad's job. I got the, just you wait until your father gets home speech as my mom called to tell him that he had an ass to beat when he got home. Seeing the pained look on my dad's face and feeling the pain in my ass had a great deal of an effect on me. I learned quick that when I acted out and refused to learn any other way I didn't just punish myself but my parents as well.

I do remember one time, in my early teens when I got more than a spanking, it's an image I'll never ever forget.

I'd been arguing with my dad most of the night for not letting me go somewhere I really wanted to go. He kept telling me I'd understand why he said no when I was older and like any young teenager I thought he was full of it, and I called him a bastard. Before I could blink he'd slapped me upside the head so hard I fell over. I was horrified, and when my eyes finally focused I looked up at my dad crying down at me his head in his hands completely ashamed at what he had done. He saw me looking at him and just kept saying over and over how sorry he was but that I needed to show him some respect.

I never ever called my dad a name ever again. He had warned me for years as I started smarting off to him as a preteen after my mom died that if I ever really disrespected him he'd slap me, and he did, and I never disrespected him again.

I really like what your parents did in terms of punishment for not cleaning your room. I may have to try that. Also, the writing lines might have to be tried too.

I was thinking the same thing about the copying lines - I don't remember where I read it but some famous artist like Spike Lee said that his mother used to make him do reports on current events as a punishment. I thought that was brilliant.

I love that part about crying, the best...

I've been beaten... not just spanked... beaten... with a leather belt and switches... beaten so badly that my butt was black and blue and I couldn't sit down at school the next day without pain... and I had to, because heaven forbid anyone ever found out that my parents disciplined me.

I knew what they were doing was wrong, at an early age. My final straw was, at 16, my father accused me of breaking the computer. I had not done so... he slammed into my room, carrying the mouse and backed me into a wall, hitting me with the mouse so many times... I had a welt about six inches on my arm from the cord. At the time, I was seeing a counselor at school for "issues". The counselor was helping me work through a lot, because we don't have and didn't have a great family... I told the counselor about the episode and she looked at my arm and called CPS and I begged her not to.

I was even punished for that - and after CPS got involved, to which I lied to the CPS investigator and stated that my parents did not drink and did not do drugs, and after confronting my parents, finally, with the knowledge about their drug use and them finally acknowledging it, I was forbidden from seeing the counselor at school.

And, two weeks later my Dad, sitting at the computer, stated quite calmly that he knew I had not broken the computer.

I know I come from a long line of tempers that rage... it was my biggest fear in having children and so, I'm glad I didn't have a child at a young age... I know it's one of the things I'll have to overcome... I'm like you, though... I don't want to spank because it does no good... and only hurts the emotional welfare of an individual. I'll be damned if I ever spank my children, and damned if I fall into that pattern. It demoralizes... and no good has ever come out of being spanked... definitely not with me... b/c to this day, my parents are not people I can talk to... I don't trust them... I don't trust them not to judge me... and, I know a little bit of me fears that they'll hit me... because that mouse story was tame compared to other times...

Ugh. Just... ugh. I'm sorry, B.

This made my heart hurt reading it.
I am sorry.

Your story gave me goosebumps and made my stomache hurt. I'm sorry that something so horrible happened to you.

everything has pretty much been said.
just stopping in to say "hi"

although I would like to add:
Is Airwolf your dad? Because I am loving reading his comments

Would you say you have a good streak of your daddy's personality?

I'm more my Dad than my Mom, for sure. What I get from my Dad? Love of books, TV, movies, technology, video games, board games, socializing, nerdy stuff, etc.

My Mom? My temper, foul mouth, and tendency to want to snatch a bitch up that annoys me. It's the traits that I get from my Mom that could one day land my ass in jail.

"People think that just because you explain your reasoning to your kid, you are giving them permission to be… I don’t know, disrespectful."

My mother overheard a conversation between Zoe and me when I asked Zoe to clean her room. Zoe asked, what I thought, were a couple of innocent questions: Why do I have to clean my room? Why do you care, if it's my room?

My mother thought she was being fresh. I didn't. I explained that it's important to keep your things where they belong so you can find them when you need them and it looks nice when you make your bed, etc. She said "Oh." And cleaned up her stuff. No biggie. My mom thought she deserved a slap for even asking.

I think you made the right move. A testament to knowing your own child. You would be the best judge of when your child is being sassy or honestly in need of an explanation.

My neighbor is not in the habit of explaining why he says no to certain of his son's requests. He says that he isn't asked to explain when he says yes so he's not explaining when he says no.

Oh, oh, oh! Tell the story about the box of raisins, Sophie!

I'm not an avid spanker. For me spanking is usually a last resort. And even then I don't spank immediately because I don't want to discipline out of anger. I think that sends mixed messages to the child. Only because you are usually running on high emotions at the time. Also, what may cause you to spank one day may not the next, thus sending the mixed message to the child.

For example: My oldest daughter is getting older so I expect more out of her. I feel that I should'nt have to repeatedly tell her things that we do on a consistent basis. Like every morning we get up brush, teeth, wash face, and get dressed for the day. Her sister usually follows what she does. When they're off taskk I remind them of what they should be doing. Even when goofing off and they run the risk of being late. I may raise my voice a little to get them to realize I'm serious but for the most part we progress and get out of the house on time. No spankings needed because I know this is typical behavior for children thier age. Besides they are their mother's child. I know that I move slow in the morning so I get up an extra hour earlier to be on time.

Another example: I expect my children to exemplify the behavior they have been taught at home and in public. Like they know no running in the house, no writing on the wall, etc etc. So when we go places I expect them to continue that same behavior even when they're friends are acting a complete fool. Recently I took my daughters to see High School Musical on ice with some of my friends and thier children. After the show the kids amped up from the show with the help of icees and cotton candy were being loud and abnoxious in the lobby. I reminded them they needed lower their voices and stop horse playing. While walking to the car some of the kids start running ahead. I tell my girls to stay by my side because you don't run in parking lots. We had a bit of a walk ahead and the kids start running off again. My youngest daughter is a bit of a rebel and runs off with the pack. I don't chase her, when we finally arrive at our truck I first remind her of my warning, what she did that was disobediant, I ask her why she is getting the spanking so I know she understands the difference, and then I pop her on the behind.

All children and parents are different. Some parents are traumaitzed by what happened to them and refuse to spank. Some to often want to be thier kids friends and refuse to spank as well. When it comes to my children I know that what works with the oldest may not work with the youngest. I find a balance between those two and do what is needed for my children to get them to understand. I also try not to discipline out of anger and frustration and discipline them out of disrespect, disobediance, and lying.

You bring up a great point about discipline and anger. God forbid you hit before having a moment or two to calm down.

I can relate all to well to your morning routine and the obstacles of having slow-moving kids.

My son is six and I've never spanked him. My son has never done anything as far as I'm concerned to warrant a spanking. I was spanked as a child and I'm not necessarily against spanking. But how can you tell a child not to hit if you hit him... and yes I know there is a difference in "hitting" a child and "spanking" a child... but does the child?

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  1. [...] The Spank Debate | Blog It Out Bitch (blogitoutb.com) – March 23, 2009It’s just how my mother and stepfather rolled. I grew up in a time when parents spanked and openly admitted it. Hell, parents would spank other people’s children! It was more than “it takes a village,… [...]