Lost Season 5 Epi. 7: The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham

Yay! The Chad! I'm going to go out on a limb and say I think you might be right with your outlandish theory.

Nina... where's the picture of Sawyer :(

Agh! I was rushed. I will add it later.

Yay back at'cha, Cathy. ;) I'm just following Nina's lead. I like shooting the shit about this show with other interested people. It's fun to do while I'm on the crapper. :)

I humbly request more equal-opportunity hotness in the form of Kate and Sun photos.

1. It's obvious Eloise was the catalyst that made him kill Locke. But what still doesn't make sense is why it matters that Locke lived or died after Ben knew that he too knew about Eloise.

2. I knew that Matthew had been given a name before last night, but I didn't know it. I write the recaps from what's going on in my head as I'm watching.

3. Your confusing me with the van! What I meant was that anything they have with them when the lights flash, goes with them and it goes in the same condition it's in. That's why the rope went when Sawyer was holding on to it at the well. So, if they were at a time where the van was new (like the 70's or so) and Jin was in it, it stands to reason that when the lights flashed, the van would travel with him. I don't think he got it from after the time Hurley fixed it up, but from an earlier time because his DI uniform looked new too. Also, it could be a different van altogether.

4. Vincent stayed behind. Walt gave him to Shannon. We saw Walt as recently as the end of last season. Homeboy shoulda asked about his damn dog as many times as people almost died helping him take of/find him.

I think Widmore is Daniel's father.

1. I thought it was obvious too, but you mentioned thinking Ben was there to kill Locke from the moment he came to "Locke's Last Stand Motel". But of course, that wasn't the case until Locke mentioned Ms. Hawking. But we're on the same page, because I'm not sure why Locke had to die either way either... unless it simply comes down to the fact that there had to be a stand-in for the corpse of Christian Shepard, as Christian himself insisted to Locke, and Locke was the only one on the island who Shepard would reveal himself to whom had the faith to make that sacrifice. "That's why it's called a sacrifice."

3. If the van time-shifted with Jin in it, then the van would be in the same condition after the time-shift, rust and all. So it wouldn't be all new and shiny like it was when Jin drove up to the lagoon where he found Jack, Hurley, Kate, and Sayid. The only thing that supports the van time-shifting at all is the fact that the canoes do too when someone is sitting in them during a time-shift. Then again, like you said, it's probably just another van... that I believe happens to be there in the 70's while DI is running the island, which is when they all are now.

4. Shannon died long before Walt and Michael left the island. On the Season Two DVD extras, Vincent IS on the boat with Michael and Walt when they leave the island. So according to that, Vincent came home with Walt. We just didn't see it in the aired episode. Whether that counts or not, I don't know...

But hey, check this out: http://www.ajiraairways.com/ Ain't it cool? Just like http://www.oceanic-air.com/

Also; Widmore as Daniel's father: kooky, but I'd buy that for a dollar. Makes sense Eloise got knocked up while she was still on the island if Daniel was born there, and she didn't look pregnant when Daniel met her past self in his brief time-shift to the 50's. Then again, wasn't the whole reason Juliet was brought onto the island because women couldn't conceive on the island naturally? They had to be pregnant before getting on the island for the baby to survive - like Claire or Danielle Rousseau. Of course, maybe Widmore and Hawking knocked boots after they got off the island. It makes some poetic justice (or destiny, in this show's case) that their kid would be smart enough to be able to plot and predict the windows in the island's electromagnetic bubble with some degree of certainty without the pre-existing DI research and equipment that his mother, Ms. Hawking, has in L.A. (and may guard closely precisely so Widmore cannot use it). Hence Daniel's value to Widmore as part of his mercenary team meant to hunt and kill Ben. It also explains how he can give a pilot like Frank Lapidus accurate coordinates to get away from the island. Daniel is the only person in the world who can accurately plot an way on or off the island without the Lighthouse Station's equipment or the time-shift manipulation of the cave's wheel.

Here's a thought - could the damaged nuclear bomb on the island in the 50's be the reason children born on the island have extra-special abilities (such as Miles and Charlotte have, as they were both born on the island)? I posit that was part of the reason Dharma Initiative made most of their stations deep-underground bomb shelters. Could Alex Linus (Rousseau's biological daughter - born on the island) have had abilities that we don't yet know of? Perhaps the atomic bomb's radiation was the cause of the paranormal abilities of every child born on the island - they're all good ol' fashion X-Men-style mutants!

Which would make Aaron Cyclops.... or Cable... or something....

The reason I said, "He better not kill him," is because Locke was wavering, but we know he died. So the natural assumption I made was that, "Ok, if he talks Locke down, he doesn't kill himself, but we know he dies..."

What I was thinking of was Walt leaving the dog with Shannon when they left on Michael's homemade raft. I think they didn't show the scene with the dog on the boat in the actual episode that aired because it didn't make sense! Walt never came back to camp after being snatched by the Others at sea. Michael killed Ana Lucia and Libby and then lured Kate, Jack, Sawyer and Hurley to the Others and for his efforts he was put on a boat with his son and given the bearings home. Vincent's ass was nowhere around. He wasn't snatched with Walt and he wasn't tagging along with Michael and the gang. Also, I swear in one of the episodes this season Sawyer picked up his leash when they went back and found the camp ransacked. I'll go back and look.

As for the van, that's what I'm saying! Everyone seems to be assuming that the van timeshifted with Jin, which I agree with. But I don't think he was in it at any point AFTER Hurley found it, which would have it shift rusty. I think they time shifted to a point in time where the van was new, he got in it at some point and for some reason, and then they time shifted again. Voila! New van.

Charlotte has extra special abilities?!

Re: Ben killing Locke - good point. Makes sense to me. It's all part of the drama how they try to do things we wouldn't see coming. When I saw the promos for this episode, Locke's apparent suicide reminded me of Brooks from "Shawshank Redemption".

As for Vincent, yeah, that makes sense to me too. But the question remains - where/when the hell IS Vincent? If he's still on the island, does this mean he's been time-jumping too? Is he dead? Has anyone been taking care of him? Does he have a bloody nose? And I think you're right - I seem to recall Sawyer picking up a leash too.

I'm definitely not thinking the van time-shifted anywhere. Never did. I think we're all thinking too hard about the van. It's just a van. It didn't need to have time-shifted anywhere. DI has a couple of 'em on the island and the gang is now in the late 70's/early 80's during the period of DI's control of the island. Anything over a year of being broken down in the jungle is still going to show wear-and-tear on the van, even if Jin time-shifted at some point after the well Locke went down became sealed. No, I think it's just another van (or the same van, but now they're in the 70's/80's before Ben killed his father and abandoned the van in the jungle in '92, but after DI began running the island). As such, Jin and the rest are probably now all either working for DI comfortably, kicking it with the Others, or stranded on the beach. Not for nothing, but it looked to me like Jin was on a patrol when he came across Jake, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid. Just my $0.2.

Now for me, the real question is this: if everyone on the island is stuck in the 70's/80's during DI's heyday now, this means there's a good chance that there are now two Bens on the island, we're going to be able to see the kids born on the island during that time - Miles (who is clearly Dr. Candle's son), Charlotte, and maybe Daniel - and perhaps find out if there's something to the extra-special abilities theory.

As for Charlotte specifically, I'm just throwing that out there, but there HAS to be a reason she was so heavily affected by the rapid time-shifting well before everybody else. So yeah, she's special somehow... and I think Miles knew it too. Remember - he implied he knew more about Charlotte's secrets *AND* knew she was born on the island.

OK, gotta jump in here 'cause I can't respond below.

I think that they (the others) were attacking DI before Ben arrived. Remember in the season premiere when the Asian doctor was making the orientation video for The Arrow and he said, "Given your area of expertise The Arrow is a defense station against the hostile and indigenous..." and then he was cut off.

I want to know who he was making that video for: "Given your area of expertise."

Also, from episode 1 I called it that Miles is that guy's son.

Yay, The Chad!! I love your Lost theories!

I think that Ben did need Locke to be dead and only saved him from suicide because he knew Locke had met Widmore and had his backing. Knowing this, Ben knew Locke may have some information, so he talked him down, got the info, then killed him dead like he was "supposed" to be.

Side Note: Aren't "Fringe" and "Lost" both J.J. Abrams shows? That would explain Abbadon having the scheduling clearance for both, as opposed to Michael. However, isn't this Michael's second attempt at a pilot since "Lost"? If it fails, he could be back.

Your outlandish theory about baby Charlie growing up to be Charles Widmore blew my mind! It took me a bit to wrap my head around it, understand the time aspect of it, had complete clarity and totally agreed, and then lost it all because it blew my mind too much! haha However, I know I caught on at one point so I still love that theory and can totally see that being the case! What I couldn't wrap my head around was Penny & Desmond coming to the Island to search for him, becoming "Adam & Eve", and then Jack & Co. finding their skeletons...how could that be if Desmond is eventually on the Island with Jack & Co. and all that transpires after? Well, it can be due to the whole time traveling aspect. Right?? But wouldn't that mean that at some point, the time traveling has to be reconciled and Penny & Desmond would be dead in present time? And Widmore being his grandfather isn't sitting well with me, but time will tell if we get more info that will lend credence to the theory. Ugh...but still, I love the theory and I'm on board! However, I still think Penny & Des named their baby after Charlie...that really doesn't have to change. But having THREE Charlie's on the show can't be a coincidence!!

Oh and I think Widmore told Locke that he flew in a specialist after the Tunisian doctor did what he did...basically to fix his leg up properly.

Yeah, I got the impression that the first doc did a ghetto fix. And then the specialist came in and hooked him up.

Hi Vernsy. :)

Re. J.J. Abrams shows: Good point. I hadn't thought of that. Anything's possible if the LOST producers signed up the actors in advance for whatever they'd need 'em for.

As for how Desmond and Penny get back on the island, imagine this - you're Desmond and/or Penny, and someone has just kidnapped your darling Charlie from you and you've just been told he's on the island now (and now he's a cranky fucker on the island in the 50's with an eye for the bonny young Ellie Hawking...). Bet'cher ass you'd go back to the island to save him any which way you can, right?

And Des and Penny, they've got a boat. And furthermore, Desmond knows how to find Eloise Hawking, knows Daniel Faraday, and knows what they both can do - which is find the island. Let's not forget - Desmond has been know to jump through time and space without being near the island at all (which gives me further pause for thought to speculate that he was born on the island too and doesn't know it... which explains his own deep connection to it).

As for why they die in the cave in the 50's, the DI stations weren't built until the 70's. If Desmond and Penny end up time-jumping to the 50's when they get to the island, that cave is the only shelter near the beach THEN. So they may have died in that cave before DI was ever there. No DI yet mean no stations, no supply drop... nothing but ancient ruins and landlocked sailing ship. And perhaps a camp of Pre-DI Others...

If so, perhaps the Pre-Others protecting the hydrogen bomb - Richard, Eloise, and douchebag, neck-snappin' Charlie all growed up - killed them. Imagine the bittersweet irony - their own child killed them because he didn't know it was his own parents come to rescue him. And he never knows because he doesn't realize in his later years that his daughter's rakish Scottish lover is none other than his own biological father!

Damn, Widmore! No wonder you're such a bastard! You *ARE* your own grandpa!

(*cue piano music*)
"Now many, many years ago, when I was twenty-three,
I was married to a widow who was pretty as could be.
This widow had a grown-up daughter who had hair of red.
My father fell in love with her, and soon they, too, were wed.

This made my dad my son-in-law and changed my very life,
My daughter was my mother, cause she was my father's wife.
To complicate the matter, even though it brought me joy,
I soon became the father of a bouncing baby boy.

My little baby then became a brother-in-law to Dad,
And so became my uncle, though it made me very sad.
For if he was my uncle, then that also made him brother
Of the widow's grown-up daughter, who, of course, was my stepmother.

Father's wife then had a son who kept him on the run,
And he became my grandchild, for he was my daughter's son.
My wife is now my mother's mother, and it makes me blue,
Because, although she is my wife, she's my grandmother, too.

Now if my wife is my grandmother, then I'm her grandchild,
And every time I think of it, it nearly drives me wild,
For now I have become the strangest case you ever saw
As husband of my grandmother, I am my own grandpa!

I'm my own grandpa!
I'm my own grandpa!
It sounds funny, I know, but it really is so...
Oh, I'm my own grandpa!"

I smell a hit record!

I think Penny's ass is already dead. From last week's episode. After Ben sees Desmond at the church he tells Jack that he has to run an errand - keep a promise to a friend. That promise that he made Widmore at the end of last season. "I will kill your daughter." This is why Widmore told Desmond that whatever was going on, he wanted him to keep Penny far away from him. He hates Desmond! But given Ben's threat, he's glad to have Penny estranged from him. Then Ben calls Jack from the marina (Desmond/Penny live on a boat) and he's all bloody... yeah, Penny and/or baby Charlie are dead.

As for the timeline stuff above... I think there was a point when Ben was on the island with Widmore. 1. When Ben turned on the Dharma people and had them all gassed and dumped, no one ever said he became the leader of The Others and Richard, he just joined them. I think, when he did, Widmore was already the leader. 2. This last episode Widmore said he was the leader and Ben tricked him into leaving the island. That says to me there was a time when they were both living amongst the others at the same time and possibly friendly. Until he tricked him to leave in order to be the leader himself, much like he's manipulating Locke.

I had the same thought last night. I agree with you 100 percent about Ben attacking Penny. I think Ben just attacked or killed Penny, attacked Desmond, and kidnapped or killed little Charlie. That's Desmond's incentive to go back to the island like I suggested before. Either way, Penny's beaten up or dead and Baby Charlie is kidnapped or dead too. Desmond is either beaten up or as yet unaware of his wife and child's condition at Ben's hand... and he is about to become pure vengeance and wrath.

Ok, I can roll with the idea Widmore and Ben were on the island together. I think you're right - Ben either tricked Widmore (and probably Ellie Hawking too) off the island where they couldn't get back, or perhaps Widmore and Hawking took the children off the island so Ben couldn't kill them. Widmore never went back. Ms. Hawking, however, go go on and off the island as frequently as Ben and Richard do, considering she's approached Desmond and Charlie at different times. But if Ben was not a member of the Others until he committed mass-murder, and Widmore left before Ben's poison gas purge, then Widmore either left well before the purge or had defected from the Others and became a member of DI himself, because Ben's poison gas attack happened in '92. Widmore was already wealthy and successful in '96 when Desmond found him at the auction in which Widmore bought the Black Rock ship's log. So I think he'd been wealthy and building his empire long before then.

I also agree with you about Ben never technically being the leader of the Others at the point that he killed all the DI people. He just sort of assumed the role after that... by the grace of Jacob, or what have you. When you think about it, only Widmore referred to himself as the leader of the Others. I think that's his ego talking. He was no leader on the island at any point. As a younger, neck-snappin' douchebag, he also thought he was a peerless escape artists whom nobody could track, and he was full of shit then too.

What I think remains to be seen to solve this is whether the Others were attacking DI compounds before Ben ever got there and whether Widmore was part of the Others at that time or if he defected and became a member of DI, or if he simply left/escaped/was tricked off the island. I'm under the impression that Widmore has been funding what remains of DI in the present because The Hanso Foundation runs DI and The Foundation is a subsidary of Widmore Industries now. This lends some credence to the theory that Widmore left the island estranged from the Others, but not from DI (or that he possibly escaped with Hawking and the children).

I was confused by Ben killing Locke. Ben certainly is a douche bag, but I dont think he was intending to kill Locke till he found out about Hawking either. I mean, he was going to kill himself, so why didnt Ben just let him do it himself?

Eloise Hawking is confusing.
And I really want to know what happened to Aaron and why Kate wont talk about it. Any theories?

I think at the head of each side will be Ben and Widmore, but who they expect to follow them?? Clueless. At this point, I suspect Widmore to be telling the truth because from the very beginning we saw Ben being threatened by Locke. I think it was after he found out that Jacob spoke to Locke that he shot him and left him to die in that pit where they dumped all the original DI members. BUT the way this show works they can throw something else at us that makes us believe that Ben was actually being GOOD when he killed Locke!

Here's my theory about the Others, Dharma, Richard, Widmore, and Ben: I think Widmore and Ben's conflict comes from Widmore being defacto leader of the pre-Dharma Others (who were essentially Dharma scouts for the island) while Richard was off-island meeting people to join Dharma or to test young John Locke.

Ben joined his father on the island while the Dharma Initiative was up and running. Richard came back to find Widmore fucking things up on the island by playing Big-Man-On-Dharma-Campus because it became more about the financial potential of the island for him. So Richard approached Ben to take out the Dharma Initiative people from the island for good, save for the few Ben felt he could manipulate into joining his side - like Juliet and the rest of the Others. "Do it for Jacob!", Richard will tell him.

Meanwhile, Widmore escaped the island with Eloise Hawking and perhaps a few children (like Daniel, Miles, Charlotte, and maybe Desmond... and hell, maybe even Jack, all of whom have certain paranormal abilities due to having been born on the island) and whomever else just before Ben's chemical attack on Dharma. Thus Richard went from being one of the pre-Dharma Others to being one of the Dharma Initiative (remember - he recruited Juliet for them) to being Ben's right-hand man with the new Others... in name only as Richard really answers to a higher power - Jacob.

When Jacob decided that Ben's ambition exceeded his destiny just like Widmore did, he anointed Locke as the new leader of the Others - the same way he chose Ben to take over when Widmore got too big for his britches. Richard became the messenger to make sure Ben is out and Locke is in in the same way he made sure Widmore was out and Ben was in. The way it's been going, Jacob chooses those with the greatest faith in him and the power of the island until their egos get in the way and they start thinking they're the shit - first Widmore, then Ben, and now Locke is building up that vibe for himself.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Walt was meant to be the next Richard and Aaron (being born on the island) was meant to be Jacob's next chosen island protector. Either way, Widmore and Ben are simply intelligent and resourceful egomaniacs fighting for control of the island because they both BELIEVE that Jacob chose them and ONLY them, and fuck anybody else who gets in the way of that.

Yeah, I agree with your assessment of Ben and Widmore's motives, but I think your timeline is off.

I think The Others (including Richard) were there for a very long time before DI got there. As we've seen they were there in the 50's when the military came sniffing around. Richard looked the same, Charles was a young boy.

In the 70's, along came Ben. The DI people had been fighting with the original others (Richard, Charles, etc.) when Ben turned on them. Juliet wasn't there yet. I don't think he took any DI people along. In fact, in that episode we see that he let them kill everyone with the poison gas. He joins The Others and they take over all the DI stuff. Now, what he told the mainland DI people, I don't know. Maybe he said The Others massacred them all and he escaped, but either way he was still getting funding and access to leave (remember the sub?) all those years. Remember the plane dropping off the supplies?

Somewhere in there he tricks Widmore into leaving so he can become their leader.

A few years before the plane crash, he sends Richard to recruit Juliet.

I think the timeline still fits. Keep in mind the Dharma Initiative was around and on the island for quite some time.

In the '50's, the pre-Dharma Others team including Richard, Widmore, and Hawking are on the island. We already know that people on the island don't age like they do in the "real world". The only reason Widmore and Hawking are older now is because they left the island (in my theory anyway) right before Ben took out the Dharma Initiative on the island in the 70's.

I think you got me on Juliet though. I keep thinking she was recruited to the island under the Dharma Initiative name, but I may be mistaken. As for Widmore, I still think he left the island much sooner than when Ben took out the DI people in the 70's because there's been no evidence he was on the island at that time. It's just a theory, but I still suspect he got off the island with Ms. Hawking and the children who he later specifically chose for his private paranormal mercenary team (Daniel, Miles, and Charlotte). Who better to navigate the special issues of the island than a group of individuals who were born there and developed certain abilities because of it? Even more so if he took them off the island himself, so he'd probably have kept tabs on them as they got older... which is no different than he does for ANYBODY who comes off the island, for that matter.

One last thing about the cargo plane, or more specifically, my theory of it - I don't think there's any Dharma Initiative left on the mainland other than was Widmore controls and the station Ms. Hawking maintains in L.A. I think the plane is the same damn plane and same cargo every time. I think Ben manipulated the island into a time-loop using that donkey-wheel in the cave for the express purpose of getting a steady cargo drop at the end of a certain number of cycles on that wheel. Imagine it - just one plane and one load of cargo replentishing the necessities of comfortable island living in perpetuity for all time. The plane is stuck in time in it's own version of "Groundhog Day" where they timeshift into the island, drop their cargo, and timeshift right back to the first shift with a full cargo load again, and again, and again...

This explains why nobody can leave the island except through either random chaotic or controlled (with the cave wheel time-shifting - because it's almost impossible to get away from the electromagnetic output of the island before each loop which happens every 24 hours, imperceptible to anyone on the island unless the time-loop goes out of whack and starts giving everyone time/motion-sickness. A various time-loop interruptions like that may be the reason certain boats or planes got through - Desmond's first boat, the freighter, the planes... even the Black Rock. Think of it like a shifting, undulating invisible shell of spikes around the island - getting through is a matter of slipping in-between the spikes into the weakest part of the electromagnetic shell and falling into sync with the island itself... at least once the radio signal blocking from the underwater DI station The Swan was disabled anyway. The DI station Ms. Hawking maintains is the only way to graph, plot, and time those weak spots in the shell from the outside world. Otherwise it's fairly random and a matter of just being in the right spot at the right time that the island time-shifts once The Swan's signal block is no longer in place. If you're aware of it shifting on the mainland, as Widmore may have learned (since he knew the general location of the island when HE left it), it's just a matter of having a ship in the area and waiting for a time-shift to occur around that location.

And remember that both the DI people and Ben's people came to the island by boat. But weren't The Others making Sawyer and Kate clear rocks out of a long field when they were captives? Airstrip in progress.